Calling all silver experts!-foal colour question

Hello
We need input from all those who have actually bred and seen silver dilution foals from birth....
Here are our questions:

1. Can a foal be a silver carrier and not have the light mane and tail or eyelashes? I have heard of self coloured manes but are there black based foals born who do not appear to be silvers at all???

2. Brown silvers?? I have seen Draco(Champs tobi colt) and other genuine silvers who do not really appear as obvious to the eye but yet are tested silver... did these foals have any obvious signs of being silvers at birth??

Now for the reason we are asking..
We had our black tobi colt born by our silver mare (tested) as seen on announcements thread... he appears to be a black no silver... but he was very early(306 days) and now as he is almost 2 weeks old still not at his due date his colour is changing(it is as if his foal coat is growing thru).. he is looking lighter almost a buff chocolate(especially flanks, tummy and legs) and tail appears to have silver hairs not white (like his Dams) he also has very choc/orange inside his ears exactly like dam.. now he may be a brown as she is and that is why he is changing but we are a little suspicious and of course hopeful that he actually is a silver... (he is very similar to a smokey black foal from what we have compared him to) We will wait a few more weeks before we test him but would love some feedback from you guys.

Thanks heaps

I can't tell you what your foal is as I've seen some truly odd black foals. I've seen plain black foals look totally brown, have totally white(ish) tails, even be somewhat red colored, etc.

However I can say that I've seen multiple black based silver foals born with ZERO hint of being silver. Sometimes it seems to come in later. On the other hand I've seen several born so pale as to be mistaken for palomino, etc. It just really varies apparently.

Is it tough to get them tested where you are?

I really must finish fixing up the other pages of the SilverEquine site. Here's the foal color page. Excuse the other empty tables and mess. It will give you some more foal photos to look at. http://silverequine.com/foal.coat.color.htm

In my 'limited' experience all the foals have an odd looking color to their mane and tails. It may be dark but it's not black. Kind of a gray/brown mousy color. If they are jet black I assume they aren't silver carries. There have only been 2 foals of Guthrie's that haven't been tested - SnapDragon who really looks black and the newest 2010 foal Smokin Sugarfoot.

Can you post some new photos of his mane and tail?
Also for me I don't count any white body hairs as being a silver characteristic. I think it's just too hard to tell if its silver or rabicano or sabino or ???

Thanks heaps girls
I have added a few more pics. Taken this afternoon with the sun behind me so shining straight on him. To throw a spanner into the works we have found out that our mare's sire was listed as a buckskin... we know she is a silver and we know she is brown and homozygous black but ... the possibility that she is cream also.. a bit far fetched I know but we didn't test her for it and I have to say there may be a slim chance.. so possible that this foal might be a cream carrier...?
Yes, we can test easily just have to send tail hairs to USA(animal genetics) and comes back in a couple of weeks so that will be the best way for sure.. but FUN to have guess anyway His mane is black and definitely not looking like a silver and his tail has some light brown hairs through it similar to his Dam but I wasn't able to get a close shot zoomed for you guys.. What do you reckon is he a brown?? black?? Do you take the light inner ears as a sign of a dilute gene or not relevant at all...

I think he's really, really interesting. I see no indication of silver at all. I'm pretty convinced he's not. But the rest of his color is very interesting to me. Based on your first photos I'd just assumed he was black, but he doesn't look black in these and I went back to look at the other photos and can make a case for not black there too. I think he may be brown. What color is the sire? Also... are his eyes blue(ish)??? Between the creamy tan color on his hiney and the bluish looking eyes (and the tan ear hair, though I've seen it on normal blacks and browns before) I'm really wondering about that cream gene that might be floating in there.

I'd be testing for agouti and cream. Might as well test for silver, but I'm pretty sure it's not there.

Hi ACC,
Yes, we think he is an odd shade.. sire is black..no agouti.. so if he is brown At he has it from his Dam, can't be a bay so either brown or black. I found a pic on another site of a brown cream mare (tested) I think you also post there and she is a very similar colour to our mare.. so there definitely may be a chance that our mare who tested positive for silver which she got from her dam may have also got the cream from her sire....? WOW it is way out there, but in regards to the foal he is an odd one for sure
Will test him and post results... might test his Dam again for cream also.. worth knowing.
Thanks and can you reccomend any other good colour genetic forums...?
We are hooked

I should've looked before replying. I see the stallion is black based so he could only contribute 'a'. Has the mare been tested for agouti? I remember you wondering if she was 'At' but I didn't know if 'aa' was possible. She's VERY dark. If she has agouti at all I feel certain it's 'At'. That would mean this little guy could only be black or brown based (no real surprise there). I was just looking to make sure a brown base (and no other agouti base) was possible. The mare is also definitely dark enough to hide a cream IMO, especially since she has silver.

Right now I'm leaning to smokey brown (E_ Ata CRcr zz). But I wouldn't be shocked at brown, black or even smokey black. ROFL!!!

This was a rather brownish toned smokey black, and she is still much more clearly black than this foal:


So I'm definitely leaning away from the 'aa' bases for now. But he sure did look blackish in those first photos... GAH he's a tough one!!

The only two that I find worth frequenting are:

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/horse-breeding/

and

http://www.equine-color.info/phpBB3/

Thankyou
By looking at the picture you just posted I reckon he is looking more brown now at this age then black as there is a chocolate hue over him...so may just be a brown but will still be interesting to see! Either way we are very pleased with him regardless. Great input appreciate it!

COLOUR GENETIC Test RESULTS for Malone

EE- homozygous black

aa- no agouti

no cream or silver but still more than happy with these results!

AND>> there is always next time

Well that sucks, but you still have a very cool color and genotype anyway!